Well what started as a good sized bunch we headed off on our way to freo down Canning.
By the time we were 8kms the group had dropped half the bunch, ran several red lights and everyone was intent on just destroying everyone so in the end there was a small group out front with several smaller groups scambling to catch others.
This Peeved me imensly to say the least. Why you ask?
Well this a fast group, yes it is but group is not singular, the purpose is to ride as as a group at a fast/steady pace to I would think approx halfway (as it used too) so everyone can catch up have a chat, roll through and on teh return its open slather to do your best (which is alot of fun) BUT nothing comes before SAFETY!
Running Red Lights is just plain stupid and not only endangers you but others and if a car did come through he may swerve to miss you but take out the other 10 or more in the group!
I dont care what we all do when riding by yourself but when you are there representing your chosen club you should act appropriatly do you think?
We could of kept a steady 35-40 ave rolling down to Freo regrouping after splits lights (for the ones that did
bother to stop at the red ones). So that we could continue as a GROUP.
If its a solo TT you are after why bother joining the group in the first instance? Now while I know sometimes you cannot slow in times the mojority of
the group can and if we re group after
there is no need for risk taking is there..
You know who the culprits are Im not here to name names but fair dinkum we as a club have a duty of care to our riders and our riders have a duty of care to themselves/others and the club.
I have since found out other clubs IMPOSE fines and are banned from joining club rides until that fine is paid up. Maybe it is something we will have to look at? your thoughts as I for one dont want to think we need things like that being the awesome cycling family we have at SPR.
So in summary I propose that the fast GROUP should be exactly that a group so the slower people can learn and grow during the first half (when we should be re grouping) and when the pace really comes on it naturaly leaves teh strongest to fight it out but allows others to grow with strength (as many many people are doing over teh last few months) to be able to keep up and more which is fantastic to see.
Sorry to be a little downward on our great group/club but I mean really I dont want to pick any of you of the road after a crash Ive lost a few good mates allready and its not a nice feeling telling their family and friends what happened.
Please continue to have fun with us but please be mindfull.
Thanks Peeps.
Brendan (Nico)
Vice President
Good on you for speaking up Nico.
We all need a reminder every now and again that we don’t own the roads.
And, races are where we race, and bunch rides are for, well, bunch riding, right?
I am sure I am not one of the people accused of going through a red light. there was a regroup early on after the group was split by lights. the next split a small group got away up front to head up the hill first. whether they ran lights, I doubt it, they were first to the lights and those further down the line had to stop as lights changed. Iwas one of the people stuck down the back.
it is the fast ride and yesterday there were some hills which is always going to split the group. the group which were up the road after the lights was caught just after the hill. and there were no more lights where the colour of light was in question (well at least not up front.
it is true, we are the fast group and we stuck together till we hit the hill which has always been a point where some pace was put down. I think it would have been easy to have a nice baseline going all the way home but as it was, I felt I did not get a full work out. I did enjoy the ride and there was a front group of about 8 (which I feel is a good size for rolling through at pace? a smaller group is safer in my eyes). the group gets split into smaller groups of similar abilities. we still have the main group for those that do not want to get dropped and who are still developing.
obviously going through red lights is to be frowned upon but I really did not see anyone blatantly running lights yesterday. an issue I have is the apparent trend of riding ones tt bike in the advanced group where roll throughs are going to be done in a large group environment. personally I have to say I feltsafer once split from the weaker riders who would have started getting erratic when the pace went up and also when away from the tt bikes.
we could organise a further split, a group above advanced who are happy to hit it hard for the whole period. it is not a race but having your ring hanging out the whole ride helps prepare one foe a race environment as well as lifting ones fitness.
sorry for contradicting with what you had to say but you were down the back with me when group was split by lights so I know I could not accuse the front people of going through red lights.
In conclusion, I had a great hit out and feel those around me did too, even if it was fast the majority of the way.
Some good points raised from several perspectives. I can understand Ryan’s call for a hard hitout. He is however at the pointy end of our group and keeping up with him for extended periods is like a race for most. Him escaping thanks to a lucky/unlikely light change doesn’t bear thinking about.
As Nico and Stu have suggested, perhaps we need to re-visit the raison d’etre and general ethos of the advanced group. The problems with risk-taking and becoming more dangerous have grown since the days when the groups would split mid-ride. The fast/advanced group would then become the non-stopping, non-regroup, cut-throat train for the last half or so of the ride.
Now that we are doing this more or less the whole way (after a short warm-up) the importance of being in/with the front group – if you want to be there at the finish – becomes absolutely vital. Hence, if the lights change as the group rolls through, individuals have been less likely to stop for fear of never seeing the front group again (as happened on Saturday). On Saturday, some even used the late light to get a break before the hill and some advantage; we have become too competitive when this is happening.
Perhaps we need to declare ourselves a slowing, regrouping but still fast-rolling ride up to a certain point designated on the route-map (around 2/3rds distance?) so that we keep the vast majority of the group riding and working together. If the group knows that this is the policy (to slow and regroup after light splits and early hills) there would be no temptation to run a red light.
Given that the Main/Intermediate group is now over-subscribed, we might also be able to tempt some of the stronger riders there to ride with the Advanceds if they knew that it would be a more supportive environment (and that the chances of being dropped only involved the last 15km or so).
On the time-trial bike point, the SPR etiquette/rules are fairly clear about those riders either working on the front or dropping completely to the back, keeping out of the middle of the bunch and not participating in the roll-throughs.
And Josh, don’t piss off the President when he isn’t well.
Cheers.
Just a suggestion, why don’t we make the advanced group ride the usual river loop. It only has a couple of sets of lights, everyone can go hard in the usual sections, then regroup in the usual spots. There is also a few short cuts that people can take to get back on the bunch. This would take out alot of confusion with the ride route and people would know when & where the group would go hard.
Starting at usual place we roll around the to the causeway/riverside drive and then when we hit Dalkeith it could be our first fast section etc, etc.
It seems to work for the Thursday ride.
Matty U
First of all I’d like to say I like this open discussion.
Second I’d like to present my opinion. I’m not so sure about making the advanced group ride the usual river loop just because I like a bit of variety week-in-week-out. Although I completely agree with the logic behind it.
I definitely share Nico’s concern especially since it was my first time riding with the advanced group – I enjoyed riding hard but didn’t feel entirely comfortable with people running red lights/yellow lights for fear of losing contact with the faster part of the group. I was certainly a culprit of this. And I agree that the fast group should actually be a group. I like the idea presented by both Nico and Michael B of riding in a more controlled manner re-grouping and riding as a group (yet still as fast as possible) for the first section (1/3, half, 2/3’s…whatever it may be). This will eliminate the people doing risky things such as going through yellow (red) lights as they know the rest of the group will wait for them.
Finally, I think Stooge made a good point, at the end of the day bunch riding is for bunch riding, and although we can go hard and flog each other, we shouldn’t be riding as if we are racing on the road as this simply isn’t the place to be doing it.
A great debate and good to see the freedom of speech alive and well.
Lots of suggestions for improvement…but the Mike’s reference to the SPR ‘rules’ made me think…do we already have it?
Here’s my 2 cents (or at least the one’s of relevance here.)
SAFETY is always the number one priority of any SPR group ride
SPR rides are recreational. They are not races!
Choosing to participate in an SPR group ride means you have chosen to be part of a team.
Remember… our actions as individual riders reflect upon SPR as a whole
We’ll leave the TT bikes for our own rides.
Rob
Have fun!
I must agree with Matt, the normal river loop with Shelley loop has its advantages in that the distance is good and there are limited lights and the ones that are there are not in places that will result in riders getting dropped for no reason other than they did not want to run a light. It also has a good number of fast (6 or so) and recovery sections rather than just ramping the speed up over the course of the ride. I personally like the routine of doing the same course each week as it allows me to gauge how I’m travelling week in week out, but I understand that others would like doing different routes each week.
That being said I rarely ride with SPR on the weekends:(
Some good points by all but at the end of the day safety for the bunch comes first followed closely by SPR etiquette!
Ryan you obviously rode with blinkers if you did not see this happens several times..
Maybe you can form your own group and call it super advanced solo?
If people require a flat out(race) last man standing ride may I suggest doing one of 3 Papa’s, Barrack St ride, narrows or the WAR rides, they all are flat out and wait for no one and quite often very dangerous, or step up up and do more races with ATTA, CWA, track or MTB even there is many options to for fill youre need for speed.
Our groups are aimed at being groups regardless of size. If people continue this trend a Club fine or punishment will be agreed upon and actioned. It has too as we will not have a choice before something happens which I know no one will like!
I find the TT bike comment a cheap shot at deflecting teh real issue here of risk taking, I only used my TT extensions when on teh front of a group never when rolling through (as stated in the etiquette) and I would hardly call the 3 of us weak riders! Come on be real.
Please read our Etiquette pages and our “about us” page I think it sums everything up dont you?
I did not see anyone going through a blatently red light or doing anything blatently dangerous. If people do these sorts of things they should be named and shamed and as you said perhaps a club fine or punishment passed on. Groups are always going to be split by lights and as long as you do not start going over the road when the lights are red, I believe you are within the law (i.e. light turns red when you are half way across the intersection)?
The super advanced solo option has been explored and perhaps will be more in the future. Not so sure about the flat out (race) last man standing ride, there was a group of close to 10 of us at the end of the ride and I believe there were smaller groups behind us? With the current format, I was under the impression breaks were inevitable, we stayed together until the Risely St lights broke the group up. Then we rode up the hill where some caught the small group who got through the lights. In Freo the front group was joined by a much larger bunch (must be because we stopped at lights or the group behind went through lights?? I can not comment). Then the undulations along South St split the group again and the front group then got a good run of lights down to Livingstone shopping centre.
The front group of 10 were all taking their turns at rolling through, I would go so far as to say we were working really well together as a cohesive team/group albeit we were at a pace which was working us hard. I would have thought the groups behind us would have been operating in a similar way?? Smaller groups working well together??
TT comment was not a cheap shot, it was directly aimed at the issue of risk taking. Riding a TT bike in a group scenario is more risky in my eyes. I was not implying you three were weaker riders, I was saying I felt safer when I was away from the TT bikes and the weaker riders (you three were not in the weaker rider basket). Perhaps if there is enough support, there could be a TT bike group one Saturday a month or more if there is a greater need? I stand by feeling uneasy around someone on a tt bike in a group. One the one WAR ride I did, Luke Durbridge was there on his TT bike, he is a World Champion on the TT bike (so obviously not a weaker rider) but I still felt a little uneasy and contemplated not doing the ride, luckily him and the Meyer bros played up front by themselves.
As for the suggested rides I have had limited experience in all of them but I can comment on them as follows:
1. Papas, I have done this ride twice, first time it was enjoyable (public holiday), some very fast riders in town but not too much wind so group kind of behaved. My shoulders were sore after this ride from being so tense the whole time.. Fun?? Sort of, did I rush back? No..
The next time I did it, Joe, Matt and Steve were doing it, so I thought, why not, try do a ‘fast ride’. This was not an enjoyable ride, firstly a chap called Matt Dec took it upon himself to jump over the roundabout to over take me, then proceeded to push me over towards the opposite kerb, causing me to have to brake, he then flicked his back wheel at me.. Noice, you would think an ageing man would know better. You would never catch a Meyer Brother riding like that.. Then going up the section from Canning Bridge to Mt Henry, the cross wind had the group spread across the whole road. I could not believe it, not only were they spread across both lanes, the bulk of the riders were on the wrong side of the road (this included riders who have come on SPR rides).. I stayed on the left side of the road by myself in the hope a few riders would come left and start working with me. Did not happen so I dropped off the back. I then picked up a few other riders through shelley and started working well together which was very enjoyable. We ended up meeting up with group again but once again on Mounts Bay road, both lanes were taken up by the group. So I would not recommend the ride to anyone unless they have a death wish.
2.Barack st, I have never done this as it overlaps an SPR ride, perhaps it is a decent alternative, Joe seems to like it. I may start doing it.
3. Narrows, I used to ride with them years ago, safe sitting on the front and got a good burn. But can get too big and unsafe, hence why I went with the split when the Riders Choice Thursday ride was started (there were only 6 of us to start with but the rides were enjoyable). Again I stopped going with Riders Choice as we started our SPR Thurs ride (which has now grown to a size which makes me nervous but is a good hit out). A few SPR riders do the Narrows rides and I think they enjoy them.
4. WAR, unfortunately I have only ever been able to do one WAR ride, it was fast and enjoyable. I enjoyed the ride more when the pace was on and smaller groups were formed. If I had the luxury of not working on a Wednesday, I would definately looking at doing more of the WAR rides as it appears there are less risk takers in the group (well from my one experience anyway).
I try to do my 2 rides a week with SPR (I sometimes struggle getting up on a Thursday morning) so my one ride with SPR on a Saturday. I am a risk averse person hence why I do not race much, I get nervous of falling (not only due to no training). I am currently deciding what to do as it appears I have a fragment of bone floating around my elbow, from my fall in Vic Park, (being rammed into the rails at over 40km/hr is not much fun) but these things happen in racing and I was very happy not to have been hurt more.
I have my TT bike now so will definately be partaking in ATTA events. Never done a pure Mtb race (even more risky than crits?) but have done adventure races where mtb riding is one of the legs (I like this format and will do more in the future). I will never race track, too dangerous for me. Speed is good as long as it is safe speed so I chose where I get my doses from carefully…
Guys – I like the open discussion as well. I support Matty U’s idea about an advanced river ride on Saturday morning. It is probably the safest route for high speed riding and most people know the way, and bikes are common to the general public on this route. If you choose to go on it you are under absolutely no dilusions about what it is, and the intensity of it. I suggest a few ideas and rules to add to the experience.
1. Safety is main priority and as a SPR group, we display ourselves as a cohesive, orgainsed unit.
2. Light runners and dangerous riding will not be toleratred.
3. Nominate several regroup points such as the lights at Stirling Highway, and the lights at Freo port, with slightly slower intervals immediately after. This is not a wait for 5 minutes regroup, but just an opportunity for someone to get back on who may only be 50 mtrs off the back is the time.
4. Introduce 3 or 4 sprint points throughout the ride, and get a Sprint Ace Points going.
5. Regroup for coffee and socialising after the ride.
I like riding hard when I am fit. I wont go on hard rides when I’m not fit because I know I will get killed off. For an example, when I am not fit (usually in the middle of winter), I’ll do the Tuesday morning ride and not the Thursday monring ride because I know I will get dealt too and dropped half way around. I dont expect anyone to wait for me as this could bring some disatisfaction to their ride.
Me getting dropped because I’m not goin ok is not anyone elses problem but mine, but I am also aware that it can create safety issues for the guys that are going better at the time. I know for safetys sake that if I am not fit, and I am in the pace line and the hammer goes on, I will cause a split in the bunch which causes other riders behind me to make evasive passing manouvers to get around me, and in this case, it is me, the unfit guy making the ride unsafe for the others. To counter this I generally choose to do a series of less intense rides for several months until I am capable of riding at this level again.
In general, I support the creation of a Saturday ride that simulates race pace and high intensity riding because this is what the demands are of you if you race.
Dear fellow SPR krew.
I think Mr Fynn has encapsulated my experience with other groups, although I have worked out the perfect Saturday regime. It is as follows: –
Start with a Really Super Fast Advanced Solo Ride In My Head, from the Narrows to Swanbourne (leaving really early so no one can verify the average speed).
Then
Join the Fast Bike Force Subiaco ride along the railway to Leighton, try to get the sprint points.
Get dropped.
Join the Old Papa train until Bourke Drive.
Get dropped.
Join the Barrack Street ride up to about halfway along Shelley.
Get dropped.
Limp to any cafe I can find.
This way I maximise my ability to blame red lights. Eschelons across the road. Out of control TT dudes that have reaction times about 5 seconds too slow.
This regime is what I now call my Interval Training.
All of these rides are filled with idiots. The ride does not make you an idiot, you do. Riding a bike fast is naturally going to drum up the Testosterone and competitive streak in all types.
Name and shame if you want to improve the culture, as it is the club culture that will make it a nonsense in the end.
Mr Sensible.
I too was caught at the back on Canning Hwy. I was with Nico and we stopped at the Red light as it’s the natural thing to do; essentially it means you will live longer. Some of the front guys would have had a yellow but there were plenty of guys that carried on through the Red. And it was definitely Red.
One of the major points I would like to make to the other groups reading this is that this is not the norm. Since the ‘Advanced group’ started we have had a steady ride out then a roll-through then a who’s left can try and blitz the others; or as often happens form a smaller working group and get a dam good workout. The time to do this has seemed obvious when out on the road; the problem on Saturday was the drag on Canning which I think people were afraid of being behind on it so probably took silly risks to gain an advantage or at least not be at a disadvantage.
I think the change of routes is great and more of a test each week; we already do two SPR rides round the river and anymore will make me dizzy. I think we just need to establish a format, especially if a hill comes up early. As Ryan says plenty of other ‘crazy’ rides out there of which SPR is not, and probably accounts for its increasing popularity. We just need to make sure the ride doesn’t become one and stays safe, which is the whole point of Nico’s blog.
As for TT bikes I don’t think it should be encouraged for group rides as they do have different ride characteristics, some riders are scary enough on there regular bikes; that said the guys out on Saturday have a lot of experience and I did feel safe around them.
For the record what did start out as a Cr@p off the back, caught at lights ride to Fremantle turned into a great ride with the front group of eight where we rolled through very nicely but unfortunately couldn’t stay with Ryan’s “super advanced solo ride” down Riverside Dr.
Could I vote for keeping a different Saturday ride each week (but with caveats about regrouping and a designated fast point to the finish – within the bounds of safety)? The River ride is great but we do use it a lot throughout the week and I for one would find it boring to do the same ride every Saturday. We would also be doing the same as (copying?) most other fast bunch rides in Perth.
I think a river ride at that time on a Saturday morning is just asking for trouble, walkers/ runners/ DOGS/ other slower saturday morning riders. We do this early on a Tuesday and a Thursday and dont have those troubles.
A suite of courses for safe fast rides for the Saturday morning “racers” needs to be developed….suggestions??
I think we have a pretty good selection of rides. saturdays ride was good, double lanes for most of the ride. the only contention were the dubious light running and when the gate should be dropped to allow a fast ride home.
perhaps asking the group who gets through a set of lights to drop speed down to 20 till dropped riders catch up. do we start rolling from the get go or is the roll reserved for when we are allowed to use some gas?
personally I felt we had a very easy ride out to Risely st. not sure how many km but approx 20% of total distance. I think a hill is a good place for the pace to pick up as there is a higher chance of the strongest riders to end up out front.
I am happy with the way our Sat rides have progressed. we now have more depth in our group which is great and the faster (whilst remaining safe, the better). thursdayaverage was a tad over 40 to raffle and Sat was approx 37. two solid hitouts which would not be possible without a few strong people. all we need mow are some race smarts.
Perhaps there should just be a nominated ‘hit-out’ point, be it 10km’s in (easy for most to see on their computers), whereby with the group together (that’s probably the critical thing here) a call can be made to start rolling through.
As Stu has mentioned, a race preparation group would be a good idea, although what may be required is just an extension (10+ km’s there aren’t really many races that are even less than 60 odd km’s, barring crits, but really to train for them, you just need a carpark and some witches hats rather than a nicely plotted, organised and usually scenic route) to the advanced route. This would be a lot of work however to re-map though, and i guess if one does want to do additional km’s, there’s nothing really stopping one from riding around after the SPR group ride.
I agree with Michael about maintaining the variations week-in and week-out, and realistically, if there was a nominated ‘Start-go-fast’ point i think the ride would be improved.
Also, on the red light issue, i believe that i was one of the first few riders (i think i was 2nd or 3rd) through the intersection in contention, and whilst the lights were (still) yellow, in hindsight, i am pretty dissapointed in myself that i didn’t stop, given that there was a train behind me. I’ll accept repsonsibility and i apologise for this, there’s no excuse for comprimising safety (particularly that of others). I’ll certainly ensure that it doesn’t happen in the future.
In your defence, Jarrad, it isn’t easy to stop quickly, i.e. slam on the anchors, when you’re rolling on the front as the lights change and there isn’t a strong cry of “slowing” or “stopping” behind you.