Our strongest turn out today with 30 riders fronting up. A few new faces introduced themselves at the carpark and we headed off for a reverse round the river ride. My job was made easier today due to help from Raphael, Josh and Scott.
Our first obstacle was the right hand turn off Canning Hwy to get onto Burke Drive. As luck would have it, a whole bunch of cars were there when we wanted to turn but we managed the turn without a problem – good work guys!
Onto Burke where the pace was pretty civil. The guys up the front decided that they would deviate from the map (yes, I just checked and we were meant to go all the way to the end) and turned left early up Page St. 
As expected, the group blew apart on the hill. I came up the right trying to get to the 3 riders who had about 50 metres on the rest but came to a near halt at the corner onto Stock Rd – it’s important to stay to the left if you aren’t overtaking (plus, you might get a draft off someone 🙂
I saw Josh win bragging rights and there was a little confusion at the end of the golf course about how to get back onto the planned route as we intersected a big CycleBuzz group . Raph and I kept going straight which got us onto Preston Point Rd.
We made our way onto Leftbank where he started it off as he moved in front of me and put his head down. I looked back and there were people behind me so when he pulled off the front I continued for another minute. I pulled off and three guys came past and then I realised we had about 100 metres on the rest. We took a quick turn each and stopped at the end before the turn onto Queen Victoria St. We moved to the Bus Stop and waited a few minutes for the back-markers.
We got split at the North Freo lights (Tydeman/Port Beach Rd) and after cruising for a while, I decided to wait at one of those carparks on Marine Parade for the group to come back together. A couple of riders took the shortcut down Curtin Ave to skip out on Cott and we found them at the Stirling Hwy lights. Nice timing.
Got passed by a soccer-mum in a people mover on Jutland Parade with not much room to spare. There were 3 of us for the sprint and I was the only one to know when it finished (too unfair to claim a win I think). A group of about 20 came back together on Steve’s Hill and we were at the Mounts Bay Rd lights for a while but no sign of the others. I figured they had Scott (who apparently broke a spoke sometime along the ride), Raph and Josh so we pressed on to the finish without a problem with Nathan doing the most work to coffee.
Now, special mention goes to Ivan who was dropped a few weeks ago and has apparently been in training. He was towards the front for the whole ride and looks a whole lot fitter so well done.
Secondly, I also know that a few people struggled today. A request to slow the average pace of the group was made (by someone else) and it’s something that I’m open to and something that we should talk about. This group is really about you guys and a group consensus about the pace of the ride should be made. Like all group rides, some weeks will be quicker than others. Some people will be faster than others. What I want to do is maximise safety and enjoyment. I don’t want people to feel discouraged they can’t keep up, but I also don’t want to force everyone else to slow down for the sake of a few others. If you would like to see the pace go down slightly or you’re happy with the way it is, then let us know.
Cheers
Nice write up Ronny – what was the average pace of the group today? In the beginning transitional was ment to sit on 25 – 27ish im just curious to see what we sat on today? 🙂
Oppps… my bad. I just wanted to check out the Page St hill to see what gearing I should use for tomorrow’s triatholon (well biatholon as the river is now unsafe to swim in).Our average for the ride was just over 28kph, so wasn’t too bad – but there were more surges which may have put some in the red. Think of it as interval training.
As a group was a much better week and as a group all kept together well. Was a strong finish on mounts bay road too. Sitting on around 39 -40 and thanks to the guy that eventually joined me and took over the lead for the last 500 ~ 800 meters or so.
Ok 28kph isn’t so bad, although i find it hard to believe. If you remember what the transition group was intiated for it was to encourage novice riders to come up from the novice group. It is Transitional so that riders who reach a certain level of ability and speed can transition to the intermediate level. Interval training is my friend believe me. However if we are sitting at the higher end of the bell curve for this group then I fail to see the ability to make space for people who are trying to transition up. Maybe its time for some of the faster riders to move up to intermediate if they wish to keep pushing up the speed of our group. Just food for thought. What is the reason the transition group was formed and are we still working in accordance with that decision? There were a handful of riders today, who definatley didn’t look like they ought to be riding in transitional level. Maybe they need some interval training at the next level too.
I understand what you’re saying Lynda and I hopefully have a few constructive comments to make. For starters, I try not to judge the pace of a ride by our average speed. There’s too much variability due to the terrain, prevailing winds and the number in the group to do a meaningful comparison between weeks. Yesterday was a good example – it might have felt that it was much faster than usual but it had a big hill in it and there were periods were there was a bit of a wind working against us. If you were in the bunch, which was the biggest we’ve ever had, it felt close to where we usually are because there were lots of people to share the work and when you weren’t on the front, there was a good draft to be had in the pack. However, if you were off the back, you might have been riding into the wind for long stretches whilst trying to recover from a hill or two.
This all comes from the fact that we are riding faster for small stretches during each ride which I think is a big change from the novice group. Everyone yesterday could keep up when the group was riding steady (for instance, along Canning Hwy) but when the pace was upped, like on the Point Walter Hill or along Left Bank, the group split. That’s normal in any group and that’s why we regroup after these sections.
Such fast sections are part of a normal group ride. They make the ride interesting and require developing skills to cope with them. Some people will be better on a hill, or on a long flat section. Others will struggle with one or the other. But everyone and the group has to try to accentuate their strengths and limit their weaknesses depending on the course.
This especially applies to weaker riders who need to be aware of where to sit in the group – for instance, which side is shielded from the wind, when to be alert, when they can relax, when they need to make their way towards the front, how to limit their losses when they get dropped etc etc
I don’t think we should get rid of these fast sections during our ride as they develop essential skills necessary to ride in the faster groups. Our pace is significantly slower than the intermediate group and yes, some people could move up, but they would be towards the back of the intermediate group and I understand that for them, it’s generally safer and more enjoyable to be towards the front of a slower group than struggling for survival in a faster group, especially when you are developing riding skills. That said, I don’t think anyone should be telling people to move up to the next group. As someone with more responsibility on the ride, I like having strong riders in the group – I don’t have to worry about them getting dropped, they can lend a hand on the front or pacing people who have been dropped back to the group and they are generally safer riders to ride with.
As I said before, I’m interested in hearing what the majority of riders think. Perhaps we are going a little too fast or perhaps all we need to do is have the stronger riders help the weaker riders a bit more, or be more aware that others are struggling, but I also think that people need to start having more strategy on the ride or perhaps like Ivan, doing more training.
All in all it wasn’t too bad a ride, the pace was ok for the most part, but maybe a little high for the group today. Usually u get 1 or 2 who drop or struggle but i found bout half a dozen having issues today. As you said Ronny, bit hard to fix an average speed. May just need a bit more monitoring on the day.
Also good point on the tactics/strategy side of things, position within the group can play a major factor in how your ride goes.
From experience, if you know your a bit slower or struggle in parts, try to keep near the front of the group as you won’t feel the surge effect as much and also gives you room for dropping back but not losing touch. The use opportunities like lights or downhills to catchup.
Thanks for the tip Ronny & Scott its nice to receive some supportive comments from Riders who have experience. I did write a response on here yesteday but Idon’t knwo where it is. I’ll have to whisper in your ear and take some of your time up regarding moving into the group and riding there. At the moment it seems as Soon as i’m in the main pack they take over and pass anyhow so I would love to be able to use some of the skills I had if I could manage to ride in the pack more often. After the very critical write up regarding Sundays Hills ride Im loathe to join in on a transitional ride again to be honest. But thats another story – I wonder why there are no roll throughs occuring so the weaker riders – of which I put my hand up for – are able to ride in the group and try and maintain some speed there. It feels like a race from start to finish. The rides did not used to be like that. Honestly Ronny with all due respect Bernie started in the intermediate group never having completed a road ride before or riding with a group and he survived extremely well. How much training do the “stronger” riders need before they are stretched to the next group. We would all like to ride where we are most comfortable, with a nice easy ride, thats why I’m putting in my two bobs worth. Instead it feels as if they keep on pushing the bell curve on this ride. Perhaps they need to ride with the intermediate so they can see how it feels to be dropped, when your red lining and pushing yourself to the max, and pehaps not be so critical in their write up on the blog? I see Micheal has made a really good transition to the intermediate and is doing really well 🙂 He came from the novice with the rest of us not that long ago. It seems we didn’t have much choice when we were told to move up a group from novice riders in the first place, and sadly some of those riders that were there then are no longer there in any of the groups – in growing you always loose some but its would be nice to be mindful of how other people feel on the ride, and leave some breathing space in there for newer peole that may want to transition up. Now that I have recovered from my injury and the exhaustion of the 150 k ride I can start my interval training but at the end of the day I have to decide if I want to ride with this “group” or not I guess.
Woops did a double check with Micheal he hasn’t gone up to the intermediate but is thinking about it – I’ve dobbed him in – thanks Bernie!!! 🙂 🙂
Just to clarify Lynda’s comment, I haven’t actually ridden with the Intermediate group just yet (apart from a pub holiday ride), although I have been planning to, and will be giving it a shot on Saturday. Jordan did it the other week, and he managed fine. Heck, if Jamie can even do it (and I mean that in the nicest way Jamie, you’re awesome!), there’s no reason why some of us ‘stronger’ transitional riders can’t do the same. Worst case scenario – we get dropped together. It’s the only way we’re going to improve our strength/fitness/mental ability.
If you’re after a fast ride the whole way round, and are getting slightly frustrated when it’s not, then it’s probably time for us to step up. I appreciate Ronny’s comment about having the stronger riders in the group to help out, and there is certainly no reason why we still can’t choose to ride with the Transitional group, depending on whether you want to stretch yourself up a level that week. But it you are going to ride with the transitional group, you’ve got to recognize the abilities of everyone riding in the group that day, and be willing to accommodate for that.
Haha no offence taken michael. And i agree with what everyones saying here really. I would say some of the transitional group riders are ready to move up or at least try the intermediate group ride, its like your not going to die, although it may feel like it 😛 and in the end for those wanting to improve i think that you will find the greatest improvent in pushing yourself, doing something you might not think you could actually do because you will probably be surprised by how far your body can be pushed (it has worked in my case :D).
Saying this though I also think that there should always be a number of experienced/stronger riders in each group as i always find them helpful as im sure everyone else does.
I also agree with Lynda in what she is saying, it is a ‘group’ ride and everyone should be taken into account, like i know if i were struggling on a ride i would want the group to slow down or accomodate for me up to a point.
Really in the end it comes down to common sense though, some people should probably give the intermediate ride a go, and i think we should remember that we are riding in ‘groups’ and that it should remain throughout the ride except for sprint points and climbs etc. in the ride where we separate a bit but then regroup soon after.
Ronny/Scott, I think Lynda’s right. The Transitional is the next step up from the Novices to gain more riding, especially bunch riding, skills. We spoke about this briefly after the ride on Sat. I think the routes shouldn’t vary too much, so the regulars know where to go, and can concentrate on skill building, rather than where the turn offs are. The route probably needs to be bike friendly so there’s more opportunities to perform rolling pacelines as well.
Maybe, at a (one) predetermined designated point, riders can stretch their legs a bit if they want, and then wait for the rest of the group to come back together, with at least 1-2 stronger riders staying back, making sure the group does come back.
Transitional riders, strong enough, should have a go at Intermediate. What’s the worst? You get dropped. Happens all the time (to me). The Intermediate rides also have a predetermined point, about 3/4 way – for most to catch up – as long as you’re not too far behind. But you’ll very quickly learn where to find shelter and conserve energy, and learn not to lose hope as occasionally, you manage to make it back into the bunch – and I can tell you, that’s a very good feeling. Especially if you find yourself with a couple others working together to achieve that.
So these are my thoughts.
I suppose if there are number of Transitional riders wanting to make that next move up, they could make some sort of a pact – so if someone falls off, you can drop off together and help each other get back on or back to the cafe… – or not; none for all, all for none.
Interesting to read that the group dynamics and issues seem to crop at most levels – particularly when the group gets more than 20 + riders.
Just in response to something that Lynda mentioned re: being pressured to move up and out of the Novice Group – not quite sure what happened there but in the current ‘N’ group set up, no-one gets pressured to either stay in or move out of the ‘N’ group. The word ‘Novice’ is a deliberate part mis-nomer to let others outside of SPR know that they can join in a ride where there will be no competitive pressure or intimidation and give them an idea and a taste of what SPR and /or group riding is about.
There are several ‘N’ group regulars that have a reasonable level of riding experience but stay with the group simply because it’s where they feel comfortable and know they can expect a safe and sociable group ride, at a pace and fitness level that suits them. I imagine that a few will still be there in a years time and will have enjoyed every Sat morning ride over that year.
So Lynda and anyone else who on any particular Sat is maybe feeling a bit flat or under pressure, please feel welcome to join in and chill out – you still get a 40 klm ride on a Sat morning & we can always do with experienced riders to assist, particularly if there are new riders in the pack.
cheers mark_s
Hey guys thanks so much for the tips and the encouragement. Its a great feeling to see that some of us are on the same page. Raphael it is great to hear how a normal group ride functions and I think for the most part the transition group does run like that to some extent,now that you have explained it. Thanks for your comments too Mark. I don’t think you were riding that often with us when the transition group began, if I have the same Mark – so you may not be aware of the process at that time. We did actually loose some riders sadley in the process – thanks for the invite but I’m happy to stay where I am or ride by myself. Once I have my training back on track and my quads are healed and I’ve picked my fitness back up I’ll be all good 🙂 I know you have enough regulars there who know how to keep the group running smoothly, alogn with yoru fantastic help! :)Ta muchly Lynda.
Hi Guys,
Firstly, let me say thanks to all for a warm welcome and great ride on sat. I was reading comments to see if the Saturday Transitional ride was normal of what to expect. Anyway, whilst reading I had a thought. Perhaps the transitional ride should be split, especially if the numbers are high. Transitional Novice (T1) and Transitional Intermediate (T2). Whatever the name, the premise is, large groups will always have a problem with accommodating everyone. Simple maths, more people = more variation in ability. A larger group will also find difficulty in getting through traffic lights and other traffic as one body and therefore break the rhythm more often. And, a larger group will also reduce the opportunity for each individual to get experience in a roll through as only certain sections of the ride appear to be appropriate for this purpose. Another benefit from the split is that each group could cater more for its riders, ie, the T1 group could be designed to help riders on the transition from Novice. Whilst the T2 group could be designed to help riders on the transition into Intermediate.
Hope no-one gets offended by my 2 cents as an outsider.
Cheers.
Ronny, another thought… the emphasis on the T group ride thus far, as I see it, is riding together and getting comfortable in riding in a bunch. When the opportunity presents, then the group may also do some paceline. These are the “skills” that are obvious to outsiders. But there are other skills not so obvious, such as reading where the wind is coming from, where to find shelter, where to place yourself to maximise the drafting effect, how to look ahead to see where the surges may come so you can get ready to limit the hurt, when you need to move near the front and when you can relax at the back etc. How can this be “taught”, other than one on one during the ride?
It may be that we are losing sight of the fact that the transitional Group has only been going for twelve or so weeks. There is a group of 8 to 12 riders fronting up on a regular basis and on any given ride we could get a further 2 to 15 riders. There were a large proportion of first time riders (to the group) on Saturday.
Yes, the group has increased in average speed since we started, however I do not think the reason is the regular riders wanting to smash the group as they get stronger. Other factors include increased awareness of each others riding ability, whose wheel you can trust to sit on and getting to know each other on a more social level – putting names to faces. There has been a steady increase in group dynamics and on most rides, unless there is a large number of first time riders, signalling, position on the road, roll throughs etc continue to improve.
I don’t think a mass migration of the stronger transitional group riders to the intermediate group would be beneficial to either group. The intermediate group is already big. Regardless of whether the migrating riders are okay with the increased speed and consistency of the intermediate group, or scrambling to stay on, or being spat out the back, it won’t alter the size of the group.
I estimate that there have been upwards of 30 riders who have joined the Transitional group for one or two rides then disappear. A few have gone to the intermediate group but a lot haven’t.
Dr Ronny and Scott do a fantastic job every week with the Transitional group and this is greatly appreciated. The influx of new riders on Saturday meant that I for one was pretty much focussed on watching out for unfamiliar riders and staying out of trouble (figuring out if anyone was dropped/struggling was not on the radar).
May I suggest that as occurred on Saturday with Raphael and Josh, a couple more of the intermediate group join us on a rotational basis so that they new riders can get a bit more attention, especially when there are a large number, also the regular transitional riders can get to know more riders from the group they are going to move up to. This could increase the retention rate in the transitional group and make it easier to join the intermediate group when ready.
From discussions within the group I believe the consensus is that there needs to be designated regroup points established at the start of each ride and probably we need more than two.
It needs to be kept in mind that most if not all the riders in the transitional group, including the stronger riders, are still learning the ropes. Perhaps more patience all round will build a stronger club ethos and result in smiley (even if haggard) faces on each ride:)
Thanks to everyone for their comments. I’m always open to insights and suggestions to improve the group. I second the comments made by Steve about the fluid nature of new riders within the group. It does make the group somewhat transient and more difficult to form a core identity around a group of regulars which is really what group riding is about. I’m not sure how many (if any more) are planning on making the step up to the intermediate group so it’s a little difficult to project numbers in the near future and like Steve, I’m not sure if moving numbers from our group to the already large groups above does either group any good. I’ve been aware that the group has been getting quicker since we formed. I think there have been good reasons for this. Firstly, I think the first few rides were too slow for what we are and should be. Our pace should be between the Novice and Intermediate group which is about where have been riding in the past few weeks (ok, perhaps saturday was a little quicker). Secondly, the majority of riders, people like Tracy, Shaw, Nathan and Steve etc etc have been training heaps and getting stronger in the past two months. And thirdly, I’ll be the first to admit that I’ve been trying to keep the pace up at times so as to make it interesting for these people and challenge myself. Part of this is because I feel they can handle it. Part of it is because I don’t want them to leave. If they did, it would leave a big identity hole in the group.
So, what should we do? Well, concrete plans are hard to make as the numbers and the people each week are different.
Our choices as I see it are:
1) Slow the ride down. I’m happy to do this. But I don’t want it to be too slow. The ride should still be challenging for most, if not all, people.
2) Get rid of riding “harder” in some sections. The benefits of this are that’s it’s easier to keep the group together as riders are less likely to get dropped. The downsides are that it skips a BIG part of group riding and removes the more tactical aspects of group dynamics which makes the ride a lot more interesting.
3) Split the group. This has merit to it, especially if numbers are up at 30 or more. With 15 riders in a group, there’s enough to get that “group” feel, more attention to each rider can be paid, it’s a little safer and each person gets more chance to get a roll through when we do it. In addition, there’s the opportunity to match abilities more within each group. For instance, we could have a quicker group who will ride some sections harder whilst the other group may elect on doing a steadier pace.
Once again, I’m interested in any comments people want to make – whether you agree, disagree, think it’s a good idea, a bad idea, anything.
Wow!! can I say I am blown away by the positive response and all of the fantastic ideas in this blog. I can see from reading the comments that everyone is trying to keep the group working together for the good of everyone and thats terrific. This group has only been going for a short while you are right Steve, although I do feel the pace that we ride at now would not necessarily be a comfortable pace for newer riders from novice that may want to come along. At then end of the day I’m not sure if there are any riders trying to come up at all, but it is just something, I feel, we need to try and remember as I am sure the day will come when we do have riders trying to escalate up the riding scale. Would be nice to be able to accommodate them without the group necessarily missing out on a good ride. Ronny we did talk about doing a ‘split” group in the novice but as far as I am aware it wasn’t greatly welcomed, hence the trasnitonal group. Perhaps it will be something beneficial to the transitional group as it stands. Keep up the good work! You and Scott are both doing a marvelous job 🙂
holy crap guys, you can all really talk a lot. i have been holding off in my response to wait to see where this was going to lead.
if i don’t have trouble with the advanced group splitting apart, its the intermediate group being too big and now the transitional group getting all in a fluster.
basically, the transitional group needs to stay exactly where it is. not faster or not slower. if you are finding it too slow, then you need to move up, if you are finding it to fast then you need to move down or accept that you will get dropped. there is no point moving the whole group one way or the other as it defeats the purpose of people progressing through the groups.
i know that you guys all started together and would like to all improve together, but that is not the aim and can never be as people improve at different rates.
the main problem is that the step from the transitional group to the intermediate group is quite large. to overcome this i have taken on board some suggestions of making up a 5th saturday group that sits somewhere in between. both the intermediate and the transitional groups have been getting too big lately, so we really need to split them both up and see what falls into the middle ground. i don’t think that any of the groups should really exceed 30 riders with 20 – 25 beng ideal. the novice group should always be smaller as this is where people learn the skills to be able to cope with the more advanced groups.
i am running out of names for the groups, so may go back to group 1,2,3,4,5. not sure yet. i will also need leaders for this new group.
if you want to improve (and not everyone does) then you really need to be pushed to go harder. dragging the rest of the group along with you is not really an option as the bigger the group the wider the spread of abilities.
i will work on a model for this weekend, but just remember that no matter what group you are riding in, YOU (as in everyone not just the leader) are responsible for the entire group. there are certain things that make us stand apart from the other groups and the sense of community is one of them.
peter
Thanks Pete! Perhaps there should be some room for growth in case we have 200-250 people each week on the ride :), so you better designate group names based on a speed scale of 1 to 10. The Novices would be 1. The advanced group 10. And the intermediates and transitions can be 3, 5.5 and 8 until we have 10 groups to fill every integer.
Oh yeah, and I obviously forgot an option 4 above – no change.
Have you guys heard of the Bendigo Sevens?
They had a write up in one of the Ride magazines recently. They way they operate is the the big guns leave the meet point at 7am. 5 minutes later the next group leaves which is slightly slower. 5 minutes later the next group leaves which is slower again. Basically if you want to go hard you go with the ‘Sevens’, less hard go with the ‘7:05’s’ etc etc. I thought it was a good idea when I read it.
Hey Ronny,
5.5 is not an integer hehe.
You would find the boys in bendigo would have a firmly established pecking order….this will take time to evolve in spr due to rapid growth in the last year. This helps stabilise the bunch and stops the ‘2 year old’ colts from creating constant mayhem. Newbies also have a ‘right of passage’ that includes managing their effort when bunch riding is not so pleasant (due to cross wind, hills, cranky riders etc) Getting popped off the back is just part of this learning process. The bunch has to settle on an agreed tempo at some stage!!! Route selection also helps with this process…less road furniture and intersections = smoother group ride.
I agree with Pete, lots of chatter here which makes an interesting read. And to see Pete use Capital Letters for the first time, puts it all into perspective!
3 capital letters! I had to look hard to find them. Must be muy importante por el presidente. I like the Bendigo Sevens idea, also means the coffee club will stagger in so the not-so-barristas can handle the coffee orders better. Also means there’s always an autobus coming up behind, and less work for the prez, only need to put up one route per Saturday.
The sevens idea could work, but the routes would have to be similar to the usual (i.e. different routes for different groups, hey, that rhymes!), else some drivers will be pretty over the sight of cyclists by the time he/she gets to the 7:00 group. Imagine South Street peppered with cyclists for it’s entire length as groups shell riders and string out, worse even if some single lane (and with the profligacy of roadworks around) roads were taken.
At the moment there’s staggered departures, to a degree, the sevens principle could be just applied to spread it out a little but i can’t see what’s really broken with the current system. Maybe naming the group after the distances 40’s, 45’s, 50’s and 55’s, that does kind of sound silly actually?
It’s good to see the discussions though.
I think there’s already an over ’55’s’ and they troll around on hybrids in bright yellow shirts – hey just realised I ride a hybrid, wear a bright yellow shirt and am over 55 – well that’s me catered for then . . . dunno about you lot
I did my first 100km ride last wednesday. After 9 am the yellow shirts were out in plague proportions.