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friday 21st mar – good friday

ride report by chrisit seems fear of the pool boy and tennis coach were not enough to stop some of the guys from turning up for the ride today. a group of 16 was a reasonable turnout for a good friday ride.

after the last public holiday becoming a bit of a smash session this one was a lot more controlled. we only managed to drop two or three and dr paul “ninja” was able to get to the belltower ahead of us. how does he pull that off?
major disappointment for the day was the usual coffee haunt wasn’t open so we had to settle another location. i can’t comment on the quality of the coffee as i didn’t have one.

anyway, the ride was the usual public holiday lap of the river going clockwise via shelley following the river to freo, north along the beach and then back to the city along the river. a little longer than the usual weekend ride but when done at a sensible pace complete in under a couple of hours.

the usual shenanigans ensued along the riverton stretch but thankfully everyone had listened to my request to regroup along the leach hwy. a little detour around the roadworks at the applecross gave us the chance to admire homes i know i’ll never be able to afford. this wasn’t without incident though as stu dropped his chain , needless to say it wasn’t terminal and we continued on.

shockingly things were reasonably well controlled all the way to pt walter where the pressure put on by a couple of the guys meant the group split up a little. however it seemed the group had listened to the pre-ride briefing as another regroup at freo meant we were all back together. except for the ninja, who at this point used his mastery to do whatever ninja’s do.

so a steady roll along the beach allowed a suffering lennie (complete with secret weapon) to catch back on, not for long though as she decided to make a solo run for home.

from here on in things warmed up a little along the northern river foreshore. i set a steady pace on the front and things were strung out single file for a while at least. it has to be said, the speed along here wasn’t quite what it is on the saturday rides.

the group slowly got back together along by steve’s but not without incident. john went down after a moments inattention led him to touch the wheel of a bike in front. a little blood and a bruised ego was the only damage done thankfully.

all that remained was the finish along mounts bay rd. now by this stage my legs were pretty shot so i decided to tactically drop down the back and have a bit of a rest before the inevitable sprint finish. i knew the flying fynn was behind me somewhere as we headed towards the brewery and thought i’d find out where he was so swung out to go find him. sure enough, there he was sitting at last wheel. ready to kick hard as he usually does. well a thought came into my head; i could spoil his sprint if i boxed him in. at least someone else might get a chance at the “win”.

as the speed picked up

i was suffering sitting out in the breeze keeping ryan boxed in, anyhow my cunning plan was foiled and the two chaps who managed to get a break were mown down by ryan and others.

so, a good solid ride and several of us hung about afterwards for the usual bench racing and some tasteful jokes from the ninja. nice.

sunday 16th mar – kahuna & urch

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ride report by dr melvyn.

this sunday ride, as you would have expected, would have less participants due to the fact that the freeway ride was on that day. when i arrived, there was no group of super fit youngsters from wais to smash us on a “recovery” ride, and many of the experienced campaigners had elected to do the flat ride, or as it turns out sleep in, with (or in) their spouse. instead, nine hardcore riders turned up to see what the “kahuna” would offer.

initially there was confusion as the sheep needed a leader. simon stepped up and set out the plan. we went out berwick, past the glass, and eventually onto albany hwy. a surprising amount of traffic for that time of the morning kept us at the intersection for a while, before we settle into a relaxed pace down the highway. all was sweet as the headwind was not blowing, and the bogan count was still low. we were enjoying it so much that when stuart and i were taking our turn at the front, we almost missed the turn off at the caltex.

going up the kohunu, all was looking good, with no wind, not too hot, not too cold. it was peaceful with the golden glow of early morning light over the bushland. i waved to most of the riders who went off into the distance, as simon (who had charitably stayed behind) and i settled into the climb. at the turnoff we found them waiting, and it dawned on me one of the secrets of guiding the sunday ride. don’t tell them where we are going next, and people will settle for a natural regroup point. we took off again down the right, left then right before gravity took over and we were able to go down urch. this is where mark d demonstrated that his bike computer must be mis-calibrated by hitting 80 down the short downhill (either that or he gets very aero after pedalling like mad). either way it also shows his disregard for safety.

after the all too short descent, we turned left to go up peet. again the natural order re established itself as i saw stuart, mark d and stan (and everyone else) go off and play in front. simon again took the term “social ride” to it word, and we were joined by todd. we soon caught up (probably because the others stopped) and made quick plans to meet again at the karagullen petrol station. Now this next bit was real riding (as it was quite flat). the pace was high as obviously no-one was tired enough, and mark d wanted to get fit on the flat bit. we got to the petrol station to find it closed (palm sunday church before easter?). there were some other guys there on motorbikes. i heard one say that he would pull over if he ran out of gas – the freedom of being self powered!

we soon set off again at pace, as we were keen on coffee and pretty much stayed together until mundaring weir road. cue the usual grunting and sweating that we have done a hundred times until the coffee shop. some observations about the shop: the service is really tangibly improving, as the owner counted us out and brought us all water to the table. they also did not mix up orders (but usually that means we get a free coffee), and it was fast. as an aside the people at the belltower must have been reading the blog as the coffee came out fast yesterday. i was however looking for a suspicious can of international roast – it was that surprising.

anyway after an all too short break and tall stories we had to take off again for the hardest climb of the day. up the street from the coffee shop to the back road, before joining on to canning. pretty soon it was the sweet, sweet feeling of bombing down welshpool (no distracting crosswinds). the main group got to the regroup at the primary school to find mark d and stan guiltily coming out of the bushes. they claimed that they were waiting in the shade as we took too long, but i didn’t have the heart to tell them that schools out on a sunday, and they would have to come back the next day to give their lollies out to the kids.

the remainder of the ride ended like it usually does. all the elements were there: a nervous paceline down welshpool rd east, a half arsed sprint 300m too early, the real sprint starting and blowing past me, turning left on the footpath at the red lights on albany hwy, tentative sunday drivers on berwick shadowing us over our right shoulders, bogans screaming uninteligible gibberish from cars, fit looking sunday shoppers at bunnings. all in all it was a good ride.

sunday 16th mar – freeway bikehike more video

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after trawling through 1hr 23min of freeway footage, i have a couple more clips to post.

the first one shows us approaching the narrows and gives an idea of the size of our group.
i pushed a bit to get closer to the front so i could get a better position before the “hill” as we past through the city.
notice how the group moves around especially when the road goes up over the narrows and some riders slow a bit. we suddenly take up two lanes.
 


the next clip just shows us going up the hill through the city.
see how much the group gets strung out and nicely down to double file.
so much easier to control and so much safer.
this clip finishes with me coming past darren, who is one of the young riders that occasionally comes out with us on the sunday hills ride. i did catch some footage of him waving to the camera, but it was just as the road swung around the camera received a lens full of sunrise.

saturday 15th mar – conclusion

ride conclusion by ryan.

as pete peeled off to go home, i was thinking to myself ‘one less person to drag across the finish line’ but as it turned out, we lost many people along canning highway, including bruce who had been looking spritely on chris’s mavic carbones (i was looking forward to a decent show down in the sprint).coming over the last rise on canning highway before we go past berwick st, cade pulled off the front with his friend in tow, i decided to let him go to assess if anyone would follow. sure enough, peter dawson picked it up a little and started to bridge the gap on cade and his mate (who had now dropped off cade’s wheel i think), so i decided it was time to catch up so went past peter dawson close enough to let him on my wheel (just to seem sporting) but he kept going straight anyway.

i then caught up to cade who was beginning to fade, i told him he was not allowed to fade now as we had to keep on going. unfortunately the lights where canning meets the causeway were red and cade and i had to stop allowing the others to catch up. i took off slowly and let everyone go past. some people picked it up at the front and people started to drop back going over the causeway. i was watching the front and keeping my distance at the back, none of the real threats were left in the pack but i did notice a shadow following me as i rode around people getting dropped.

a look over my shoulder confirmed my suspicions as there was jerard watching my wheel closely (well i hope it was my wheel, lucky i did not have my white knicks on today as jerard was looking special in his white pinarello get up and people may have started to ask questions) and keeping nice and close behind me.

coming down riverside drive, we were doing a decent speed and i noticed cade had gone off the front. i decided to go just after the first set of lights, i changed down into a heavy gear, stood up and engaged my whole body into a few seconds of acceleration which saw we passing the field at a good few kms faster than they were travelling, i was then bearing down on cade at a rapid rate of knots and when i past him, i heard him make some sort of moaning sound but i feel he knew in his heart of hearts he was not going to stay away this time.

after passing cade, i sat down, kept the gears heavy and kept on powering along, focusing on a strong round stroke to keep me moving forward. then about 100m from the lights, they went red (everytime coming down riverside drive this happens), i looked behind and there was noone within at least 30metres, so i sat up put my arms in the air (stretching, not gloating, i promise) and continued rolling towards the lights, just before i came to a complete stop, they went green so i took off after the car in front of me (which took longer than i would have liked to get going) as i did not want someone who had just reached the lights to come past and claim the hollow victory as we past the 60km sign (there was no steve r in the group today so should be pretty safe).

i past the 60km sign, still in front, changed into an easy gear to spin the legs a little before getting to the coffee shop. melvyn came up along side me just before we turned into the coffee shop (did melvyn take second place in the sprint?). Upon arriving at the coffee shop mickey’s group was still there (a decent size group of beginners which was good to see), so i pulled up an extra table and went off to get my coffee but upon returning mickey had taken all his people and vacated the premises. my efforts to pull up an extra table (thus putting me further back in the coffee queue) had been for nothing.. grrrr..

i was looking forward to the freeway bike ride the next day but because i had no bike, i could not do it.. i was very disappointed. short version of the story, i left my bike at a friends house for an hour whilst we went to breakfast. after breakfast we decided i would come back to watch the force play at 1:30pm (a good time to collect my bike as well i decided) but my friend was then invited to watch the game at one of the injured force players houses and decided it was a more exciting opportunity than watching it with me. i was not phased, it gave me time to have a snooze and clean my race wheels anyway. i informed my friend to let me know when there was someone at his house so i could collect my bike. well at 1am, i gave up and went to bed, i guess at least i got a sleep in on sunday, it has been a long time since i have had one of those.

sunday 16th mar – freeway bikehike

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not much to report on this one.
a few of us rode down to kwinana in the dark.
a few thousand rode up to joondalup at great speed.
and a few of us rode back to the city afterwards.
my legs are a bit shot from the 130km round trip, but overall ok.

it was pretty dangerous out there today, but probably a bit less than last year. i thought we had it good when it strung out going up the hill through the city. we had it down to double file and rolling through. unfortunately the rest of the pack eventually caught up and we were back to eight or nine wide and people all over the place.

the footage below kind of shows a crash with less than 2km to go. probably doing 45 km/hr at this point as people were starting to line up for the final dig up the off ramp. you don’t see the point of impact, but look for the bike flying in the air and later the guy bouncing off the guard rail. best i could get without actually causing one just for the camera.

i missed getting footage of the other crash which happened just 5 min from the start. i was chasing to get on the group at that stage so didn’t see the initial impact but saw the secondary one where a couple of guys tried to avoid it and ended up tangling up with each other on the opposite side of the road. all i can remember is the smell of burning rubber. not nice.

will probably say the same as last year, and vow not to do this event again….but i always seem to end up organising it for work so also get roped into it.

saturday 15th mar – river ride

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it has started to get a bit cold in the morning. i actually had to go back in the house and get my arm warmers out of the drawer before i took off today. on the way to the shop i was shivering so much that i wished that i had put on the vest too. luckily it didn’t last too long, and my poor little body was warm once i arrived at the shop.

there were many a bike with lights on this morning. again a curse on daylight savings. and i’m not alone on this one, with the totally unbiased and politically neutral “the west” newspaper also highlighting the fact that the sun is not up at 7am. overall numbers seemed low, but maybe it was that i couldn’t see very far in the dark, as once we got started, i saw that the group was around the thirty mark.

today was the standard river ride loop. past the uni and through dalkeith, claremont and a bunch of other suburbs i can’t afford to live in. past freo, and pt walter then back via canning hwy and across the causeway. pretty standard loop for anyone that has ridden around perth.

we had predetermined three sections where we would increase the speed and then regroup at the end. the first came up quicker than my legs were ready for and i really felt it. but i am getting ahead of myself a bit. we cruised neatly along riverside drive and mounts bay rd before turning past the uni. these are usually sections where we take advantage of the nice flat wide road on the way home, but not this time.

the small hill after steve’s pub was the start of the tempo section and we had to get all the way to christ church grammar. i had pull off the front earlier on and was about mid pack when the pace went on. being a single lane road with double white lines, i decided to wait till the pack dispersed a bit before trying to head around. once at the top, there was the rare occurrence that we had to wait for traffic so this split the pack up a bit. worst of all it was bike traffic, so we weren’t going to cut them off.

however, it did allow cade and rob quite a bit of a gap once we finally got underway. i was in the third group with bruce and we worked to catch the second or main group that was being led out by mike b. we jumped on the back, but then saw how far ahead cade was getting so had to push the pace again. i said to bruce that i was going to chase them down and was he coming with me. we headed off to the front of the pack and started to split that group apart too. it was bout this time that my legs started to complain about the lack of warm-up. as i am getting older, my legs need longer and longer before they start firing.

anyway, bruce came around and then mike b and a bunch of others, so we began to chase. the undulating hills around dalkeith make it hard to keep a good rhythm, but a group of 10 or more that we had in the chase group meant that we caught cade and rob soon after the old hospital. the pace stayed high and as we approached the end a car decided to reverse out so we all had to slam on the anchors. bruce managed to scoot around in the other lane so the chase was on as we were close to the end. cade had his rhythm broken by the car and had enough by then so ryan and I chased down bruce. the last two corners before the end and ryan flew past bruce who hung on to stay in front of me by the roundabout.

a couple of minutes to get our breath back and allow the stragglers to catch up and we were on our way again. a pleasant cruise through some very expensive suburbs but before we knew it we were at the base of the mosman park hill. this was our next pace section and the plan was to hit the hill and the next rise before regrouping at the water tower opposite rose hancock porteous whoever’s now vacant block.

again it was a matter of getting position as the climb started as the pack spread across the lane. as it thinned out i managed to get ahead, but a couple of the boys were already bolting up the hill. from memory it was mike b and ryan. i thnk that cade and jerry was in there too, but i was busy concentrating on getting up the hill myself. the main climb and subsequent rise thinned the pack considerably and it filtered in to the water tower in dribs and drabs. a couple of minutes wait and we were off again.

the remaining route to freo was nice and gentle and the pack kept together well. even over the climb up preston point road fron canning hwy was very contained. as preston point road continued along the flat through bicton, it was suggested that we roll through as the wind was not really favourable. as a group we do need more practice at this, so we took advantage. the pace stepped up, as you would expect, but not to an unbearable rate.

turning up point walter road, the group was still fairly well together, and i wanted to keep it that way till we hit the bottom after the golf course. however, cade started up early and took off before we reached the roundabout. a few others gave chase and i eventually gave in and went with them. the rest of the pack seemed to keep together but upped the pace as well.

as we hit the flat on burke drive the pace jumped up again. we started rolling through but so had the main pack which closed up down fast. we continued that way the whole length of attadale and it was good to see the group moving through. at some point along the way we picked up peter dawson and a mate. for those in our group that don’t know who he is, he has won olympic gold in the teams pursuit and world records in the same. riding in a full “rock racing” kit (the team that mario cipollini has made his comeback thorough) i had to warn nick not to give him crap about riding in a full kit. he had previously made that mistake when cj sutton came out with us in full cofidis kit. he was only wearing it because he rode for them in the protour.

anyway, the group slowed down as we hit canning hwy allowing the others to get back on for the ride home. now the bug must have bit a few people as we started to roll through again. i wasn’t complaining as i had promised that i would be home early and miscalculated by a long way. as we cruised up canning hwy, i peeled off into my home street and onto taking my young lad to the zoo for the morning.

i will have to catch up with the others to see how the ride ended and add it to this blog later.

i’m off to the freeway bike hike tomorrow, as i ended up organising it for work again. as with the brw triathlon it seems to be the same few people at work that get it organised and if not it just doesn’t happen.

so stay safe, and if you are doing the sunday hills ride tomorrow, take note of what happens, and write it down for me. i will then post your version of events on the blog. trust me, people will read any old piece of crap you publish. just look at my attempts at writing.

sunday 9th mar – gooseberry & kalamunda

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ride report by ryan

well, i was running strategically late today (i figured if i was late enough, i would miss the ride which would allow me to go jump back into bed. i felt i could do this without feeling bad as i had done an extra 90kms on top of the sat morning ride the day before. but to my dismay, everyone was rolling out of the carpark as i came onto canning highway so i just had to catch them up.
todays group consisted of nearly 50% females and 50% males. almost 6 and 6 i would hazard a guess at. josie and davina had come down to play with the big boys (ok, maybe not so big) but i was sad to see mike b in the line as this meant i would be hurt up the hills.
as i rolled past the pack near burswood, i noted there was a collective sigh (i am assuming this was because i was looking good in my white knicks and white sleeveless top??).
anyway, all pretty cruisy, some natter and taking of turns at the front out to gooseberry hill. simon was giving us instructions today as pete was giving 110% in the brw triathlon (seems he was having trouble walking for a good few days after, bike fitness does not translate into running fitness it seems).
approaching gooseberry hill, i thought maybe i would go a little harder at the front to put in a little distance between myself and mike b and stuart so i could ease up later and then jump onto their wheels as they came bay later on. well it did not take mike b long to come past and i attempted to sit on his wheel. this attempt was pretty feeble and as the road went up, so did the distance between my front wheel and his back wheel. i have only done this hill once before and i remember entertaining the idea of walking up the hill. well once again i was entertaining this notion, i am not sure why i hate this hill so much? i think maybe just a smidge too steep for me to stay seated the whole way?
well i arrived at the top a distant second and i went off left (the downhill direction) whilst mike b head right (still a bit of an incline). i am not sure who was next up but there were a group all close together (no stuart though, turns out he had dropped his chain at the bottom (very convenient i say)).
The trip to the bottom of the zig zag was fun, josie and her playmate (another young lady with tanned skin) took off, so i thought i may as well play with them and chased. i went past (being a man and all) and we kept the pace on the whole way down. slow for the corners and then charge out of them. on the last ‘zag’ i called out as there was gravel and one of the young guys had fallen off at this spot the last time i did this route. josie was behind me and was going very slow but still slid a fair bit and was nearly sitting on the road nursing some grazes, but she managed to keep the bike upright.
we regrouped at the bottom of the zig zag (well mike b took off ahead alone, which i was grateful for as i thought it meant i did not have to try so hard up kalamunda hill). i was mistaken, after choosing to head to the front and pull everyone along to the bottom of the hill, i see mike b had turned around and come back to find us. he then slotted back in with us.. damn..
up kalamunda hill, i tried to sit on mike’s wheel again but was unsuccessful once again (i was getting used to it) and resigned myself to second spot (looked back and there was noone in sight). looking forward, i did see lorraine and a few of her male friends (secret training??) and passed them a little further along the ascent. once again i am not sure who was after me (could have been josie??), i should pay more attention but mike b had taken off never to be seen again for the day.
coffee shop was as usual, too early for the opening of the fairy shop and the new waitress was not there, lucky we had the ratio we did, although josie had continued on for a little more riding (as did stuart when he caught up with us).
on the way home, we took the longer route home, i am not sure the details but down towards mundaring and then right up past carmel school? when we hit welshpool road, stuart kept the pace high on the ascent, i held his wheel for most of the ascent and then came past and let him have mine. the road then flattens and there are a few undulations till we hit the main descent. i wanted to push a little more on the way home as i felt the first half of the ride had been short (two nasty climbs though which hurt) and stuart held on to my wheel for most of the way.
down welshpool, i hit about 80km/hr i think as the road flattens out at the bottom and the cross wind disappears. we all regrouped and took off again, i wanted to do some more work so went to the front and kept the pace up. it was a lonely ride home, only davina came up beside me at one stage, i thought she was coming past to take a turn but she was just coming to say hello before she dropped back into line. we were held up at the railway line at the spot where dr melvin usually takes off, which broke the rhythm a little but then we took off again towards the mcdonalds lights.

josie had said she had my wheel but i think she thought she had miscalculated as i dropped back a little so she went ahead to find a better wheel. i then started my run a little way off the pack of the pack so when i came past them i was already a few kms faster than them and there was no chance they could hang on as i went past. worked out well and i was through the lights safe by a fair few metres.

then pulled everyone along berwick till the lights where the sprint sort of starts from. stuart came past at a pretty decent pace so i sat on him for a little while then i kicked. probably a little too soon again as jerard was sitting on my wheel again and pipped me at the post. some people can sleep at night by hiding all day till the last moment and i feel good at giving people the satisfaction of beating me every now and then.

well there is my round up of sunday’s events unfortunately it is all from my perspective and i did not pay too much attention to what was happening behind me. if anyone from a little further back has some insights on sunday’s ride, please come forward.

i have to mention stuart’s remark when i asked if everyone enjoyed the fast pace i set on the way home, he replied with ‘was that fast?’. next week he is on the front the whole way home.

saturday 8th mar – canning vale (reverse)

ride report by chris

a nice day for a ride, not too warm, not too cold, it was just right. if a little humid.
pastor pete decreed we would follow the canning vale route today which always results in a little pain along bannister rd and today was no exception but we’ll get to that in a little bit.
pre-ride briefing over with the fast points nominated as a part of nth lake rd, bannister rd and the finishing stretch of shepperton rd and riverside dve to the cafe.

we set off down the canning hwy at a steady pace allowing everyone to have a bit of a chat. incident free down to the nth lake rd turn off when i expected someone to have a dig but it seems people were saving themselves for the blast down bannister rd. so i went to the front to wind cade up along the rise to south st. mission accomplished i sat up and let the bunch blow by. i figured without our pastor i had better make sure that the flock stayed together. nice excuse to have a rest at the back too.

the run along south st was supposed to be a steady cruise but we were up near 40km/h the whole way. probably shouldn’t have fired cade up ’cause we were all about to pay once we hit the fast stretch. i’m told it was he who fired of the front immediately we hit bannister rd. i was down the back after stopping to pick up a dropped light, thanks to mike b for staying back to help me catch back onto the group. sorry if i rolled over you too strong but i just wanted the hurt to be over.

so, no steady building of speed, it was straight to 48km/h and into the hurt box. luckily we got a bit of respite before the pace picked up again. we dropped a few guys along here and i’m pretty sure there was plenty lactic acid in the legs of everyone. my data tells me we spent around 12 minutes at about 40km/h. sounds great but to put that in perspective think of your average tdf stage where they average the same speed for ~200km over proper mountains. ouch!

the final regroup at nicholson rd, thanks to those who showed some restraint and called the front guys to back it off to allow the stragglers to catch back up. a little further along and mike b and the big chris were on the front, two strong fellows pulling well but the guys down the back were still recovering so i struggled up alongside and asked them to back it off a bit. i think big chris was happy that i made the request, mr bonner was hurting him a little. by the way mr b, i gather you did rather well at the pemberton race. i think there are a few team lamo boys who might be joining you for the fun of the tour de perth support race, should be well suited to your abilities.

a steady roll along the albany hwy as we all awaited the fun of the final drag to the coffee shop. the heat came on almost as soon as we hit shepperton rd and if anyone else was feeling like me it was a matter of looking after yourself for the final sprint. the recently married mr fynn was conspicuous by his absence from the front obviously out to avenge his recent run of losses in the sprint. this opportunity was spoilt by the meeting of our bunch with another at the causeway and the part road closure along the river front.

so an anticlimactic finish to a reasonably quick ride.

my stats say we averaged 33.7km/h for the 42.7km. for interest sake my average heart rate was 147bpm with a peak of 181bpm near the end of the run along bannister rd. And for those even vaguely interested my average power was 170W with a peak of 956W. pretty lame in comparison to graeme brown who, if i remember correctly, can top out at 1500W.

figuring i’d earned it i had the big breakfast with a mug of coffee. yumm!

the pastor was there to greet us with the up and coming ben to catch up with the action. nice to see him getting indoctrinated in the ways of the velo.

rumours: michael w missed today’s ride to taper for sunday’s corporate triathlon. He also missed the thursday morining thrash, the rumour are that one is he was at the pool having some remedial swimming lessons after nearly drowning at last years event.

editors note: if you want a good work out i suggest the following.
1. mountain bike
2. bike trailer
3. 14kg child plus all associated child traveling paraphernalia
4. mount st
5. repeated sets without standing.

i did just one taking the young lad up to sticky beaks playground in kings park and it almost killed me. harder than any saturday ride so far.

jersey design – part 01

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ok, i need some help.
i am starting to look at a jersey design for the group but i need some ideas of what we will be called.
it is primarily a south perth ride so i would like to call it the –
south perth (insert name here)

i.e. south perth riders (for those with a lack of imagination)
south perth coffee crankers (has been suggested before)

add your comments to the bottom of this post, but be sure to leave your name so we can give you credit if we run with it.