I”ve noticed our Thursday morning roll though has gone to crap a bit lately. Any ideas why?
Below is a great post from Wade at Cycling Tips on the subject that is worth a read. We”ve posted it before, but it might be time for a refresher….
Rolling Through
Whether you’re racing or just in a bunchride, have you ever been a part of a nice smooth paceline and all of a sudden you’re stuck on the front and no one else is rolling-through? You’re stuck there in the wind and for some unknown reason the riders who were nicely rolling turns with you are now just sitting on. Why is this?
There are a few possible reasons:
1. You’re leaving gaps and surging. When you get to the back and it’s your turn to jump in the fast lane you might not be doing it smoothly or possibly not be paying enough attention that it’s your turn. If you need to jump hard to get on the wheel ahead of you this is extremely annoying for the guy behind you. It only takes a few of these before the rider behind you says “forget it” and waits for another wheel. That means you’ll be the last wheel in the fast lane and when you pull off you’ll be left on the front with no one rolling through from behind.
Example: Cadel (BMC Red) is leaving gaps in the fast lane and Renshaw (HTC yellow/black) behind is getting fed up with Cadel’s surging to get on Schleck’s (yellow) wheel. Sooner or later Renshaw will say “f#$@ it…I’m getting off this wheel and waiting for a better one”.
Remedy? Pay attention and make sure you change into the fast lane when it’s your turn and get on the wheel in front smoothly. Don’t let any gaps open so you don’t need to surge.
2. The other mistake that people often make in a paceline is rolling through too hard. You’ll roll past the front rider at a much faster speed than he’s travelling, leave a gap, then force him to close it. This is probably the biggest mistake that people make. This is not the time to flex your muscle. If you do this more than a couple times you’ll find that the riders behind will quit mobile casino following and hang you out to dry on the front.
Example: Cadel rolls-through hard on Schleck and Renshaw says “f@#$ this”, and pulls off in-between Schleck and Cadel. Cadel is hung out to dry.
Remedy? Rolling through in the fast lane should be smooth and only marginally faster than the slow lane. You then start pulling over ahead of the lead rider just after your back wheel is slightly ahead of his front wheel. Then you slow down about 1km/hr and let the fast lane come through.
3. To add to the point above, if you don’t slow down after you switch into the slow lane it makes it extremely hard for the rider on the front of the fast lane to roll through ahead of you. If you keep doing this, the riders will eventually just pull over and sit behind.
Example: Cadel rolls-through nicely but keeps the gas on while in front of Schleck. Renshaw needs to do a 1500watt Cav-style lead-out in order to get past Cadel. Reshaw eventually backs off after a couple times of this and says “f#$% this…” and again Cadel is left at the front.
Remedy? When you make your way to the front be sure you slow down so that guy on the front of the fast lane can easily make their way past you. Only about 1km/hr slower is all it takes. Sometimes I’ll even shift down a gear when I get to the front.
Now, if you’ve made any of these mistakes and you’re now caught at the front and no one is rolling through, whose responsibility is it to get the paceline running smoothly again? Answer: The rider either on second or third wheel behind you.
Example:
Let’s pretend in the photo above that Cadel (BMC red) is messing up the paceline again. He’s having a bad day and is leaving gaps in the fast lane and is now left on the front.
Matty Lloyd on second wheel (in polka dot jersey) is getting yelled at by the guys behind to “Roll Through!”. Even though it wasn’t Lloydy’s fault that Cadel is messing up his turns, it’s up to Lloydy to roll another turn since it’s the least amount of effort out of the bunch for him to do so. Gerro is on 3rd wheel (Sky blue). In order for the bunch to start the paceline again it’s up to Gerro to get on Lloydy’s wheel and others will follow suit. If Lloydy hadn’t pick up the extra turn, it would have been up to Gerro to roll past Lloydy to get the paceline moving again. Knowing Gerro, as soon as he gets to the front he’ll blow the group to smithereens up the next climb. Nothing wrong with that. Respect.
Now Lloydy will roll to the front, smoothly pull off in front of Cadel, Gerro will do the same, and so on. The paceline has been kickstarted again.
Of course the fact that Cadel was always left at the front in these examples could be nothing more than a lazy guy in behind (perhaps a sprinter like Renshaw) and refused to roll-through!
i LOVE this demo – it’s hilarious but deadly accurate. i was scrolling through older entries the other day trying to find it – soooo happy you’ve resurrected it. such a nitemare when some dip-stick rolls through into the recovery line about 2kms in front of yuz ;0(
…well the rules say, you got to hang ’em out to dry Lennie.
It does make me wonder why the roll throughs are never smooth – its not that hard. In my mind the only thing that everyone needs to do is make the roll through as slow as possible. Rotating slowly should naturally mean no gaps or surging. Slow it down..
I haven’t been there 😉
I love those little guys.
Things have been getting a little lax on the roll-through front, and whilst this is somewhat a case of pot-kettle-black a few observations:
– Rolling through smoothly and consistently @ 55+kph, with little to no warm up ain’t going to happen, full stop.
– There seems alot of riders willing to attempt to ‘sprint for glory’ at every occasion, but not do a turn.
– If you can’t pull a turn, sit on. That’s OK an certainly nice and safe. It’d be appreciated if one wouldn’t ride halfway up the line and then pull into any semblance of gap. I find towing people much easier than having to cover the holes they leave.
– A roll through typically means more than one turn.
I guess emphasis on “training ride” may need to be made, because if its racing one’s after, time to pin on a number. (Also see prior mention of pot-kette dialogue)
Actually scratch that last comment.
I guess what i was trying to point out was that the last 5 or 10 kms of the faster rides are generally considered a bit ‘open slather’ which is cool, it’s just that it seems some prefer to sit in so that they are fresh for the final 5 to 10 kms, which is their perogative, however, the roll through may suffer.
basically jarrad’s first point is the most important. there are only a few people that can roll through at over 50km/hr. therefore we end up with 3 or 4 guys rolling and the other 20 hanging on the back. drop the speed by a few km/hr and more people will contribute. i like a hard ride but there is a difference between hanging on for dear life and riding consistency hard.
as for jarrad’s other comment, i have been making a point lately of sitting in and then going for the sprint, just to steal any glory of those that want to absolutely smash the group.
the thursday ride has changed/evolved over the last year or so and i don’t want to enforce a set of rules on the “fast” ride. however, it needs to be more controlled and cater for more of the riders.
@Pete – The power profiles must look great:
Warm-up: 10 seconds @ 150W – that’ll do
Roll through: 500W – yay….
So can you guys do 40 km/h roll throughs for a change so that Nathan and I can join in? 🙂
no
What I find particularly painful is when you come through on the paceline only to have the guy you are taking over from put the pressure back on when you are rolling over – thus requiring you to really dig in to be able to actually ‘roll over’ the person.
When you move to left – ease the f&*k up so people can roll over comfortably.
oh actually points 2 & 3 in the post above perfectly make my point!
@jarrad well said & I agree.
PS I’m one of those who is sitting on 🙂 – at least at this morning’s speed.
From what I have heard, there are less people getting dropped on Thursday mornings. This must be due to weaker riders getting smarter (less roll throughs for them). Kudos I guess. It is a training ride and some riders want to push as hard as they can. This may end up in them being Hung out to dry on the front. I do not like to be leftoff the front to dry and always check to see there is a wheel behind me and I ease up when switching lanes (unless I am trying to speed things up, and even then I try to take at least one person with me).
It is the Thursday ride so as long as people are not being dangerous, they should be able to chose their strategy for the morning. Personally I don’t have much respect for people who sit in and then go for the Sprint (ok in a race but in a training ride is a bit rude I think.. Just me I guess)..
See you crazy kids out there on a Thursday morning one of these days. Until then, play nice..
As one of the ‘near’ original Thursday morning riders (ie: pre-SPR), I recall a very different style and mindset. The original purpose of the ride was:
A) to ride hard and fast (nothing new here), BUT only because Sat ride was slower and had more people (Thurs used to have max 10-12 riders; frequently less).
B) to ride ‘together’ as it was considered to be a ‘team training ride’ in preparation for Cyclo Sportif events (remember those? Every one of your team has to finish TOGETHER!)
C) to REGROUP at Christchurch and Freo
D) to ‘slow pace’ Christchurch to Cott; Freo to Bicton; Canning turn to ‘whatever the name of that road is with the bunny-hop bumps on it).
I remember rides where Pete would be barking at us calling ‘stay together’ and general courtesy calls of ‘last wheel’ and ‘Yep’ when it was safe to pull in off the fast line. In learning to ride in this style, I was frequently ‘educated’ by the more experienced guys (thanks Stew, Mike, Ryan) on how and where to ride. Hell, I even remember Ryan holding back before pulling a turn to make sure I was ready to go with him!!
SPR is bigger, stronger, faster than those days and while I’m not suggesting that we hang on to the past and change is good blah blah blah, some of the original ‘ethos’ may be worth carrying intothe ride.
@Rob Well Said. +1 for me. (Although I was not in the original Thur Ride Group)
Yes, initially we all stuck together (well besides dropped in Dalkeith, his mate did not want to wait up for him ;-)… In a group of 6-12 (12 being a large turn out initially), every one gets a work out at a reasonable pace.. But bump up the numbers to 20+ of varying abilities (and in a paceline, generally you go at the pace of the slowest rider or gaps will occur) and the speed slows down and the faster riders will feel like they are not getting a work out at all.
Ideally there is a natural selection early on where a group of 8-10 will break away from the rest of the bunch and they can all roll through and stick together till the end with no hangers on (this is what has been the case more often than not on the Thurs rides I do and I enjoy those rides.. Damn Stirling hwy lights let slower riders back on the group and then the roll throughs are inhibited again).. I assume smaller groups are formed behind the front group with people of similar abilities and they can roll through till the end together as well..
This is a ride at 5:30am in the morning, one has to get a work out to make it worth while getting out of bed and hence why I don’t ride on Tuesday mornings with SPR as I know going fast is frowned upon..
A solution for Thursday, if it is becoming a problem, is to split the group into smaller groups of similar abilities (who makes the call as to others abilities?). Anyway, not really my call as I am very rarely there even though I was part of the initial 8-9 Sportif racers 😉
@Ryan – You just don’t like people coming past you 🙂 (Also please see the discusson between the pot and the kettle as per my prior).
I’m not sure if we need to come up with a ‘solution’ as such, perhaps just a re-capping at the start of the ride – Lets keep the pace controlled and roll through smoothly and safely. If you can’t roll through sit at the back.
Frankly, i don’t care (well maybe a little) if one wants to sit in and sprint. That’s one’s prerogative, but just please do it safety and sit in saely when not rolling through.
Also I forgot to add one other observation: In the past, pace tended to increase in as the ride progressed, this has trended towards the reverse in the past few Thursdays i’ve ridden.
As someone who has only managed to make it to the finish a couple of times with the fast group, I can certainly say that it’s been getting considerably faster at the beginning. Sure, I was sitting on the back / struggling to hang on through Dalkeith, but in recent times I’ve blown up by the time we get to Hackett Drive.
That’s cool and all, because if I can’t hang on it’s my problem and I’m happy to ride with the “Main” group, but I’m just agreeing with Jarrad that there seems to have been a sizeable increase in the speed along Mounts Bay of late.
@jarrad – mate if you are talking about my sprinting at the end then we can have a chat at the raffles next week.
Maybe the stronger riders can do the old through and off when the pace is that hot. The hangers on can still sit on and let those working slot back in front of them.
It sounds to an outsider like you guys aren’t talking to each other enough.
We are talking.. Cyber talking 😉 The old peel off trick has proved not so successful when I have tried it.. I find I slide all the way to the back of the line with all the wheel suckers not keen to let in someone who has been doing a bulk of the work..?? So I slide to the back for awhile, going nowhere, till I have to shoot up the outside lane to the front of the group again when I am bored of sitting out back…
The ride is slowing down?? That is not good.. Jarrad, you must be unpractised if you are blowing early..
That gets back to communication, those who are sitting on need to let the stronger people know that thay can slot in in front of them, that or you push in a few wheels back rather than dropping all the way back.
Alternatively, those who can pull for longer do so, those that can’t, peel straight off.
Here’s a crazy theory about team training… since Weekday rides seem to be getting more popular until it gets cold..
If one had sportive type groups who were each within a similar level of ability, skill and commitment to ride x days.. and they could train together on a fairly consistent basis (if they wanted to) – and have a Main group for the rest.
So in essence, Thursdays would be “Fast 45” “Fast 40” of 8-10 max.. plus a “Main 32” heading off.. instead of “Fast + As Fast as I can” and Main
Somewhat related to this, Pete suggested once that we actually have a weekly Sportive event. People team up in groups of 4 or whatever, and then ride the course, setting off at 1-2 minute intervals. Then, as long as one person in each team has a garmin, we can use Garmin Connect and/or Strava to find out who “won” this weeks “race”.
Does it really matter who ‘wins’ at the end…??? Not really sure what is won anyway..
As a training ride- the ‘win’ is or should be a personal win- at least for me if I have worked hard in a ride- that is a ‘win’ for me..
I’m sure you will be noticed more for doing work in a ride than a ‘win’ at the end… During coffee after the ride there has been many comments on who is riding strong/ doing work on the front- that to me is a ‘win’, I dont think I have ever heard someone say anything about a ‘sprint- win’ at the end… It is after all a training ride… If you want to ‘win’ there is a crit on this weekend- why dont ppl try and sit in and then sprint for a win- if you do- you will be noticed…
I quite like the hard start on Mounts bay road- it drops off ppl that maybe not used to riding quick/ strong. I’m not a fan of rollng through with 30 or so ppl- safety for me is a concern..
I am sure the ppl who drop off the back can form thier own little group to roll through at a slower pace- more suited to them. It will only make them stronger…
Treating the Thurs morning, or any morning ride, as a race is a recipe for disaster- ppl will do anything to keep up- and if that means taking risks then I’m sure risks will be taken- thats all we need…
That sounds good Jordan but then you get the traffic lights etc getting in the way and perhaps an increased temptation to slip through an orange.. Would be cool though.. Andrew’s idea is pretty cool too.. Although only works for those ‘committed’ to training on a consistent basis..
Anyone want to ride in my foursome?.. Gauranteed to get out one Thursday and 3 Saturdays a month in 🙂
@ JASON… What happens if you want to work hard and win at the end? 😉
what about a group handicap – fast group chase a main group with pres deciding a different time gap each week. The perfect scenario being the fast group nipping at the main groups heels as they approach the raffles. Will force riders to cooperate and work for the group.
I agree with Rob and Jason (in part). There is too much testosterone on display through to Christ Church, rather than rolling a strong but not ridiculous pace across more riders. Guys are hanging on because the group does slow down noticeably after that and the ride becomes much more manageable for the survivors. The tough men of Nedlands and Dalkeith seem to go into their shell.
There is still a tendency for a few (nameless) riders to surge when they roll through or even attack off the front – needlessly at strange places on the route – and this kills the pace sharing straight away. Testosterone issues again. Why work if people are trying to gap the bunch?
We need to start 4-5 km/hr slower, with 10 or 12 contributing to the pace. Those that aren’t able to contribute stay out of the roll and keep down the back. Our aim should be to be riding harder on the return journey; guys can then work as hard or as easy as they want having had a good fast but biggish group ride through to Freo. From Freo onwards riders can fine-tune their training ride to whatever their needs might be and everyone leaves for work happy.
As Jason implies, racing is for Sunday. Thursday is a hard group training day. We should know each other well enough by now to work hard (for the group), to push each other along, without trying to smash anyone or letting the ride deteriorate into silly one-upmanship. I, for one, am too old for that malarkey.